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Accueil > Travaux parlementaires > Journal des débats > Index du Journal des débats

Index du Journal des débats - Participants

42-1 (27 novembre 2018 - )

OUELLETTE Guy - Chomedey
Exploitation sexuelle - Personne mineure - Audition publique - CSESM-1: 41-2

Commission spéciale sur l'exploitation sexuelle des
Fascicule n°1, 4 novembre 2019, pages 41-42


M. Skeete : Good evening, gentlemen. Thank you for your time and for your presentation. I'm going to be rather brief. I want to focus on two aspects of your presentation. The first one is this PSECA act as well as the permits. We're looking at this from a Québec point of view, not simply a municipal point of view. I was wondering if you can give us more details about what PSECA does specifically, and how it helps you do your work, and how it helps prevent trafficking, and whether or not that you feel that Edmonton bylaw could be incorporated in a future iteration of a PSECA, let's say, for Québec and that would be something that is not limited to just the municipal level. Is that something that you could see applied provincially? And how that would go about?

M. McGuigan (Brian) : Yes. Thank you. The PSECA legislation is actually a provincial legislation in Alberta. So, there are PSECA workers, mostly social workers, who... basically, they get referral casework from other social workers who work in other parts of child welfare, and they run cases with these girls, and they try and provide them assistance where they need to remove from abusive parents or the sex industry. The PSECA side of it obviously comes in with the sex industry.

We hold biweekly meetings with them where we go through case conferences of girls that they are working in their workload. They actively, as do we, search online for any females that they know of that are underaged. They will often tell us... they will provide us with information on LeoList or any of the escort websites, and quite often we will make dates with those underaged females as the PSECA apprehension paperwork is being written out. We will then make the arrest, and confirm that the paperwork is set up, and take them to the safe house. By that point, the judge has already provided the apprehension order, and that holds the underaged sex children workers for five days.

As soon as that five days starts, the clock is now ticking. So, the social work team will then work closely with us to gather more information on the apprehension or the past history of that individual and gather enough information for them to lay further information to the court looking to get an apprehension, ultimately, for 21 days, where they can still work with the child.

M. Duiker (Dan) : Just to add to Brian, the PSECA legislation in our work doesn't work without the direct collaboration with a social working agency. When you're dealing with youth, we don't have the longevity working with these children from when they're young or with their whole family for years prior. Often, these young girls will make disclosures to a social worker that they won't make to the police, and they may not want that acted on. They build the trust. But, when things go rogue with that collaboration, as Brian said, they regularly monitor sex sites that will include youth, they'll look on their Facebook accounts, they do a lot of legwork to try to identify when they think somebody is at risk. And, through that working together, that's when we come in and we'll make those dates in an attempt to engage them and apprehend them.

M. Skeete : If I may — thank you for the details on that — do you think it would be appropriate, or doable, or ideal to merge what Edmonton is doing with the massage parlor legislation as part of an enhanced PSECA legislation? Do you think the two can go together, they can live together in one legislation? Should we decide to do something like that?

M. Duiker (Dan) : I think you have a... When you're dealing with the massage parlor things, I think you're primarily dealing with adults; when you have the PSECA, you're dealing with youth. The licensing part of it, however, when it comes to licensing those who are involved in escorting or those involved in working in the body rubs, that licensing, in Alberta, gives us a leg up when it comes to interacting and identifying these women.

In many provinces across the country, they don't have legislation or licensing where they're required to have a license. When they're required to have that license, and we show up at the door, and we make a date where we think that they may be being exploited, it gives us a fraction of a moment to talk to them and demand to see their identification, if they don't have a license. Because, if they don't have that license, they're in violation, and it's subjectable to a ticket. Without that, they could easily just close the door on us and say, « I'm selling sex, it's legal, I can do it, I don't want to talk to you.» So, there's benefits on both sides to having that licensing.

M. Skeete : Thank you.

Le Président (M. Lafrenière) : Merci beaucoup. Maintenant, une question du député de Chomedey, M. Guy Ouellette.

M. Ouellette : Thank you guys to be with us tonight. Two, three, I would say... three, four quick questions. First, having these young girls or young boys from Québec, is there a fact that you can establish with... a link with the French community that you have in Edmonton? I will ask my three or four questions at the same time. Do you see in the sex trade any influence of organized crime in your province or especially in Edmonton? My third question will be : Do you have a dedicated prosecutor just for that field of activity or just for your cases, provincially or city wise?

M. Hughan (Colin) : So, the first question, you're wondering how... if there's a fact around how many women or girls from Québec we're seeing?

M. Ouellette : No. Because you have a large French community, in Edmonton especially, is there a fact that you can establish or a link because of their presence in Edmonton, because of the French community that you have in St. Albert or around Edmonton?

M. Hughan (Colin) : From conversations that the detectives are having with the girls, it's money, it's money driven, and they're being sent where the money is. It's not a cultural link, that access is purely cash driven.

M. McGuigan (Brian) : We more often see the girls flying in for one, two weeks and then flying back out again once they've made however much money they wanted to make.

M. Ouellette : The second question was about organized crime.

• (20 heures) •

M. Hughan (Colin) : ...organized crime. Yes, we're definitely seeing an organized crime element to it. From Québec, they'll come out and move around the Western ring, and then they come back, and they'll move around the Eastern ring. There are certain paths that they're taking. The money being filtered and being laundered is an element of organized crime.

We're seeing crossover between our Organized Crime and Drug and Gang Unit, and, some of the names of people that own body rub centers, that own these illicit massage businesses, we're seeing a lot of crossover in that. We're also seeing a lot of those people entering casinos and spending... We just had a guy from Calgary, in Edmonton, he was on one of the top 100 list, he had moved over $40 million through the casino in one year. He was apparently a massage... he had a massage business. 40 million dollars. There's an issue there, there's definitely that element, to organized crime. You'll probably read that in the paper soon. That was a Calgary file, not us. I can't take someone else's credit.

We do have dedicated crowns here. It's limited, in the sense that we have a couple that are interested, and they're specialized in the area because of their interest, but they're not dedicated strictly to this as domestic violence would be or as impaired might be, but... There certainly are ones that we go to, but it's not organized or really set out that this person is going to be your human trafficking person, if that makes sense.

M. Ouellette : If I may ask a last question, Mr. President, about licensing, it is applying just to escort agencies or the nude business also, like strippers, or any business around that?

M. Duiker (Dan) : It's inclusive to all of that. You have to run an operation that includes these workers. You have to be licensed separately. Like, anybody who's involved in escorting, or exotic dancing, or body rub centers, they all have separate licensing routes and, like, in all of them there is no fee to be licensed, but there can be a fine, $1,000, which is not something we like to issue, it's more of a discussion point, for the most part.

M. Hughan (Colin) : Something else I'd like to just add. There's a couple elements here. We talked about body rub centers, and the body rub center itself needs a license, and people that work in there have to have a body rub license, to work there. The stripper and escort piece has its own license. If you are a massage therapist, a legitimate massage therapist, you have to have a holistic massage therapist license. There is no regulatory system in place, right now, that controls who has licenses in what. So, if somebody has a legitimate massage therapist license, they can also work at a body center, a body rub center, if they have a license. You can see how the crossover there could be problematic in that where is the legitimate... — and, for insurance claims, you have to have that legitimate massage license — where does that crossover into I'm going to have a conversation about obtaining sex for money and I have a license for, but the business isn't licensed for that?

So, you can see that there's some issues around the crossover, which is why here, in Edmonton and in Calgary, we are seeing a real explosion in the illicit massage businesses. And there's elements of human trafficking occurring there. I know that your form is more directed towards child sex trafficking, but this would be more of a... we are seeing a lot of Asians and international human trafficking elements in that illicit massage businesses. Not sure what words you would use for those illicit massage businesses, if you just categorize them as the rub and tugs or however that translation goes, but that's what we... those are the different elements that we are seeing there for the business of the sex trade.

Le Président (M. Lafrenière) : Thank you. Next question, Mme Christine St-Pierre, from Acadie.

Mme St-Pierre : Thank you very much, thank you for your presentation. I have two questions. My first question is concerning girls from Québec. Is it true that they are more attractive because they speak French? And is there a demand for French girls in Alberta? Because it is very difficult to believe that, in your province, they need sex from a woman who speaks French and women who have French accent. To me, it's very hard to believe. So, it is a fact that they want to have girls with a French accent? Do you catch my question?

Le Président (M. Lafrenière) : Nous allons suspendre un instant, on a un petit problème technique. On revient immédiatement.

(Suspension de la séance à 20 h 5)

(Reprise à 20 h 7)

Le Président (M. Lafrenière) : Great. We put some diesel back in the generator, so we are back with you guys. Thank you so much for being with us. So, let us finish that question.

Mme St-Pierre : Did you catch my question or not? No? Yes?

M. Duiker (Dan) : Yes, and I can speak to that. I think I've had conversations with, I'd say, close to 100 girls from Québec, over the years, and, even speaking with the men who are arrested in these operations, the topic of the French accent


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